聯合國難民署6月24日表示，全球難民人數持續上升，約有250萬人急需獲得新的安置機會。在美國特朗普政府頻頻“退群”、切斷對聯合國難民救濟工作的資金援助下，相關國際合作正面臨更大的不確定性。

近日，北京對話（智庫）聯合創始人、秘書長韓樺女士同聯合國主管全球傳播事務的副秘書長梅麗莎·弗萊明對話，分享了她對聯合國的各方面工作、社交媒體時代的輿論傳播與話語構建的看法。觀察者網獲權發布。

北京對話（智庫）聯合創始人、秘書長韓樺對話聯合國主管全球傳播事務副秘書長梅麗莎·弗萊明

【文/梅麗莎·弗萊明，對話/韓樺】

韓樺：那我們先從您的書開始聊起。在書里您講述了杜婭的故事。您為什么選擇用個人的故事，而不是用數據或政策分析來呈現難民危機呢？

弗萊明：當你在談論難民時，其實是在談論數百萬人——但這些只是數字。數字無法真正觸動人心，尤其是當規模如此龐大的時候。事實上，行為科學研究表明，龐大的數字反而會產生反作用，甚至引發恐懼。我們真正需要的是讓公眾理解并接納難民，而最能觸動人們內心的就是講述個體的故事。這一結論來自行為科學領域的實證研究，也在杜婭的故事中得到了印證——她的經歷具有普遍性，每個難民都能在其中看到自己的影子。

韓樺：很好。不過在這么多難民的故事中，你肯定接觸過無數個個體的經歷，有沒有哪個瞬間讓你最深刻地感受到人類堅韌不拔的生命力與韌性？

弗萊明：我想還是杜婭的故事最能讓我感受到這種力量。所有難民都不得不逃離戰火，其中許多人經歷了難以想象的生存考驗——背井離鄉、躲避炮火、穿越危機四伏的邊境。但杜婭的故事遠不止于此：她不僅親歷了一場可怕戰爭的爆發，隨家人倉皇出逃，還踏上了一段更為艱險的旅程。無數難民都曾冒險穿越地中海，而這條航線已經吞噬了成千上萬條生命。

然而，那種對擁有更好生活的渴望——不僅是逃離苦難、求得生存，更是為了接受教育、獲得工作、真正活出人生——如此強烈，以至于許多難民甘愿冒死踏上旅程，只為尋找一個更美好的歸宿。

杜婭正是如此。遺憾的是，那趟旅程成為了命運的審判——與她同船的約500名乘客，包括她摯愛的未婚夫，最終都沉入海底。但她的故事之所以震撼人心，不僅在于她奇跡般活了下來：在地中海上，僅靠一個兒童游泳圈漂浮了四天四夜；更在于她甚至還救起了一名陌生的女嬰。

韓樺：這確實非常動人，她也非常幸運。

弗萊明：這不只是運氣。我認為這正是故事的關鍵——那是她堅定的意志和信仰的力量。她信教，但更重要的是，她當時并不是為了自己，而是為了救那個小女孩的命。

韓樺：沒錯。那么和2017年這本書剛出版時相比，如今全球難民狀況出現了哪些新變化？比如烏克蘭、加沙、蘇丹、伊朗這些地方的沖突帶來了什么影響？

弗萊明：我很希望能帶來一些好消息，但很遺憾，情況在不斷惡化。目前全球的難民數量已經翻了一番。聯合國難民署（UNHCR）本周剛剛公布的數據顯示，全球已有1.22億人被迫離開家園。不過唯一值得欣慰的是，有200萬敘利亞難民已經返回家園。敘利亞的政權更迭，讓他們在15年后終于感覺他們可以安全地回家。

這其實就是我們期望難民能得到的結局。但問題在于，那些迫使他們逃離家園的戰爭年復一年地持續，始終得不到解決。每一個難民最深的愿望就是能夠安全、有尊嚴地回到家鄉，重新開始生活。但遺憾的是，這種愿望往往難以實現，因為戰火依舊未熄。

韓樺：謝謝你分享敘利亞難民問題中的一線希望。你認為，解決難民危機的最終途徑，是讓難民能夠回到自己的家鄉嗎？

弗萊明：沒錯。在聯合國難民署，我們認為有多種解決方案，但最理想的還是難民能夠安全返回家園——前提是當地已恢復安全并具備基本生活條件。以敘利亞為例，局勢依舊艱難：基礎設施嚴重損毀，貧困蔓延，公共服務幾乎癱瘓。因此，敘利亞亟需大規模援助來重建家園，為百萬滯留海外的難民和境內流離失所者創造返鄉條件。當然，還有其他途徑，例如“第三國安置”計劃：這是一個非常有意義的項目，由全球一些國家共同分擔接收難民的責任。因為大多數難民都集中在戰亂國家的鄰國，而這些鄰國本身資源就非常有限……

比如肯尼亞就接收了來自多個國家的大量難民。第三國安置計劃會優先考慮那些特別脆弱的群體，比如兒童、失去雙親的青少年、單親家庭等。經過甄別后，這些難民將被第三國接收。他們會乘坐飛機前往那個國家，在那里會有一個社區接待他們，幫助他們重新開始新的生活。

第三種方案是本地融合。如果接收國條件允許，會允許部分難民長期居留并逐步融入社會。例如杜婭一家——包括她救下的女嬰——現已在瑞典獲得公民身份，可以合法工作、接受教育，以瑞典人的身份開啟新生活。這也是一種可行的解決路徑。

韓樺：是的。但你們具體如何為難民區分這些解決方案？又如何幫助他們找到最適合自己的選擇？

弗萊明：我想對大多數難民來說，只要有一條出路，他們其實都會感到欣慰。問題在于能夠安置他們的名額實在太少了，愿意讓難民真正融入當地社會的國家也不夠多。

所以，聯合國難民署的一項重要工作就是向各國政府呼吁并推動這些解決方案。而我所代表的聯合國，也一直在努力推動和平的實現。

韓樺：當然，你剛剛提到了一個關鍵詞，那就是“對人本身的投資”。不管采取哪種解決方案，真正投資于人才是關鍵所在。在離開聯合國難民署之后，你成為了聯合國主管全球傳播事務的副秘書長。那么在當今這個媒體疲勞、敘事割裂的時代，公眾要如何持續關注難民危機呢？而在你現在的新崗位上，你又是如何在信息割裂的當下推動溝通、彌合分歧的呢？

弗萊明：這確實不容易，因為我們如今身處數字時代，信息來源五花八門，尤其是網絡上。而且大多數人現在的時間幾乎都花在社交媒體上了。

遺憾的是，社交媒體上并非所有信息都真實可靠，其中充斥著大量虛假、不實、誤導性的內容，甚至包含著仇恨言論。社交媒體的算法傾向于推送那些能夠“引戰”的內容，而聯合國傳播的內容聚焦事實，不以制造憤怒為目的。我們致力于通過傳遞內容來啟發大眾，喚起人們的關注，同時提供切實可行的參與方式，鼓勵大家行動起來。目前，僅聯合國總部的社交媒體賬號就擁有超過 7000 萬關注者，各下屬機構的關注量也非常可觀。我們重視與傳統媒體的合作，同時也積極運營自有平臺，如多語種的 “聯合國新聞”。我們其實是在打一場信息戰，努力讓真實、可信且富有溫度的內容在信息洪流中被大眾看見、傳播。為此，我們采取各種方式觸達受眾，不僅運用數據，更通過一個個生動真實的故事引發共鳴。

當地時間6月13日，聯合國安理會就伊朗與以色列沖突召開緊急會議現場。 聯合國官網

韓樺：你確實很擅長講故事，尤其是那些個人的故事，非常打動人心。沒錯，如今越來越多的人通過社交媒體獲取各類信息，這一現象在年輕人中尤為明顯。數據顯示，Z世代中有65%的人是通過社交媒體，比如TikTok、短視頻等來獲取信息的。

針對Z世代及未來一代的年輕人，除了社交媒體外，您是否有更具針對性的傳播策略？尤其是在 AI 生成內容日益增多的當下，你們有沒有什么特別為青年群體設計的計劃？

弗萊明：我們目前采取的一項重要舉措是確保自身在主流平臺保持活躍，同時與各類有影響力的創作者展開合作。這些合作者未必是領域的專家。例如，我們發起了一個名為“真相計劃”的項目，與全球范圍內愿意參與的網紅、博主等創作者攜手合作。我們會為他們提供關于氣候變化的核心信息，尤其是圍繞可再生能源轉型這一議題，這是我們當前重點推進的全球宣傳方向。我們向他們提供真實準確的資料，并鼓勵他們用自己的語言風格和表達形式進行創作，只要確保信息準確無誤，我們就會給予支持。實踐證明，這種方式非常有效。這些創作者作為各自社群中的“可信傳播者”，通過本土化的敘事方式，將我們的信息傳遞給更廣泛的群體，從而有效拓展了傳播的邊界。

韓樺：你是說，你們會先審核這些人，然后選擇愿意合作的影響者？他們會跟你們密切合作嗎？

弗萊明：是的。而且我們本身和TikTok就是合作伙伴。他們會幫我們增加這些創作者的賬號曝光度、擴大觸達范圍。這種合作模式非常成功，也是一種非常有效的方式，讓我們能夠接觸到平時根本無法觸及的群體。對于我們這樣一個總部位于紐約的機構來說，這一點尤為重要。

韓樺：明白了。但你們是怎么驅動這些人，怎么激勵他們參與的呢？

弗萊明：他們本身就非常有熱情。

韓樺：為什么呢？

弗萊明：有很多人都希望能為聯合國工作。

韓樺：這就是工作的基礎。

弗萊明：這個世界上其實有很多人渴望和平，渴望氣候行動，渴望平等，只是他們不知道該如何參與進來。而我們的挑戰在于，我們沒有足夠的能力去動員所有那些愿意參與的人。但這并不是一個無法解決的問題。因為在這個世界上、互聯網上有無數心懷善意的人，他們真心渴望獲得真實、富有啟發性的信息。只是很遺憾，有時候那些最喧囂、最充滿仇恨的聲音反而更容易被聽到，而我們絕不能讓這種情況成為常態。

韓樺：是的，這可能也反映出人類內心深處的某種本能，對仇恨的反應往往比對希望的反應更強烈，從而讓仇恨的信息更容易占據上風。所以我們確實需要采取一些措施來對抗這種傾向。我很喜歡你們通過有影響力的人來吸引和激勵公眾參與的做法。

在北京對話，我們其實也在做類似的事情，我們嘗試吸引中國有影響力的人士，以及一些國際知名的意見領袖，讓他們更多地了解中國、了解中國的政策，甚至是一些關于外交政策的不同聲音和觀點。這種方式確實非常有趣，也非常有效——就像你說的，能夠真正讓那些“想參與的人參與進來”。畢竟現在幾乎所有人都在網上，對吧？只要方法得當，網絡其實是一個巨大的機會場，可以讓更多人建立真實的連接、增進對彼此的理解。

當地時間6月18日，在加沙城希法醫院，親屬們為前一天在尋求食物援助時被以色列炮火打死的巴勒斯坦人舉行葬禮。 視覺中國

弗萊明：按照傳統，聯合國會與一些知名明星合作，他們本身具有巨大的影響力。但我們也發現，在某些議題上，他們并不總是我們所需要的“可信傳播者”，這一點在新冠疫情期間體現得尤為明顯。當時普通人真正愿意聽從的，是那些能用他們熟悉的語言講話的醫生和科學家。因此，在疫情期間，我們開始與多個國家的醫生合作，培訓他們使用TikTok和其他社交媒體，并向他們提供世界衛生組織的權威信息。這些醫生用自己的方式向本地社區傳播知識，很快就積累了大量關注，甚至被邀請上國家電視臺接受采訪。所以，這件事真正讓我們意識到：如果你想推動世界發生改變，首先要清楚你想影響的是誰，然后找到真正能夠影響這些人群的人。這些人，就是你對外溝通中最關鍵的影響力杠桿。

韓樺：我認為這已經不僅僅是一線希望，而是一個非常有前景的方向。那么，在你們推動與創作者合作的過程中，有沒有設定一些優先級呢？你提到了氣候變化，也提到了公共衛生，這些都是全球性的議題。那么對于像地緣政治、大國競爭這樣更復雜、更敏感的問題，你們有沒有相應的策略或優先處理的方向呢？

弗萊明：我們當然每天都被世界各地的危機所牽動，這些戰爭不僅造成了巨大的人道主義苦難，也不斷加劇全球緊張局勢。我本人在紐約工作，親眼見證了這一切在聯合國安理會和聯合國大會的“舞臺”上如何上演。我的團隊負責報道所有這些重要的辯論和討論。我們會以一種非常直接、新聞導向的方式向公眾傳達信息，同時也會對這些會議進行全程直播，讓公眾能夠“走進”聯合國的現場，親眼見證正在發生的一切。換句話說，我們提供的是透明度，是事實，是對現實的全面呈現。當然，秘書長的講話對我們來說至關重要。他通常會在這些場合發聲，而我們的工作就是確保他的聲音能夠用多種語言傳遞到世界各地。他的講話內容往往是在呼吁停火、和平、對話，以及通過政治手段解決沖突，而不是訴諸于戰場的解決方式。

韓樺：沒錯，你們本質上是提供了一個平臺，讓不同的聲音都有機會被聽見，而且是說出事實。

弗萊明：在聯合國，我們的工作圍繞三個支柱展開：和平與安全、人道主義事務以及可持續發展。關于和平與安全的討論大多在紐約進行，成員國是主要參與者，他們在這里表達各自的立場。然而，我認為通過視頻報道和現場直播，讓公眾“走進聯合國”，看到真實的討論場景，是一件非常有意義的事情。這樣，人們不僅可以看到不同國家在同一問題上的立場差異，更能看到聯合國本身的價值所在。因為當今世界需要全球合作和多邊主義來解決問題。許多重大議題，如戰爭、疫情、氣候變化等，無法靠任何一個國家單打獨斗來解決。它們影響的是所有人類，因此必須依靠全球性的解決方案，而這正是聯合國存在的意義。

韓樺：是的，聯合國仍然是一個極其重要的世界舞臺，正如你提到的，是各方行動者發聲和互動的地方。但確實，有些國家或代表帶來的是基于事實的陳述，而有些則更多是“表演”，他們說的是他們“所認為”的事實。那你們有沒有什么機制來區分這兩者？還是說，你們只是提供這個平臺，而不對內容做任何判斷？

弗萊明：當發言的是聯合國會員國時，我們不會進行任何篩選或判斷——我們只是中立地報道他們所說的話，讓公眾自己去判斷。

當然，當秘書長發表發言時，他會表達立場、作出判斷，這些內容也為我們提供了方向。但總體來說，聯合國這個舞臺的核心價值之一，就是為所有國家提供發聲的機會。無論你是大國還是小國，在聯合國大會上你都有發言權，而且最重要的是，每個國家只有一票。

韓樺：這非常重要。從伊以沖突一開始，我就注意到，當我想尋找一些真實的新聞或事實時，我會去聯合國的網站。我發現，這兩個國家的代表都有發聲的機會，都能召開新聞發布會，向他們希望觸達的媒體和受眾傳達自己的聲音。這一點對聯合國來說至關重要——持續扮演一個平衡、公正的平臺角色。

但回顧過去幾十年的敘事，甚至可以說自聯合國成立至今這80年來，我們不得不承認全球敘事主要由西方媒體主導，或者說是西方在塑造敘事上占據主導地位。然而，如今全球南方國家正在快速崛起，一個多極化的世界正在形成。那么，從您的專業角度來看，全球南方國家該如何借助更具發展性、更成熟的敘事能力，將自己的聲音傳遞給更廣泛的國際受眾呢？

5月12日，中共中央政治局委員、外交部長王毅在京集體會見來華出席中拉論壇第四屆部長級會議的加勒比建交國外長及代表。 中國外交部網站

弗萊明：我認為現在確實有很多機會。這也是數字媒體和社交媒體帶來的積極一面。如今，許多原本沒有機會被聽見的聲音，無論是那些從未有過發聲渠道的國家，還是長期被邊緣化的個人，現在都可以找到自己的發聲渠道。當然，要在信息爆炸的時代脫穎而出仍然不容易，競爭依然激烈。但相比過去，現在確實有了更多傳播的渠道。在聯合國傳播部門，我們始終堅信多語種的價值。因此，我們不僅用聯合國的六種官方語言進行報道，其中就包括中文，我們還在全球設有59個信息中心，將聯合國正在發生的事情傳遞給更廣泛的受眾。同時，我們也會通過這些渠道，把世界各地正在發生的重要事件帶到全球平臺上。尤其是對非洲，經常會有很多刻板印象。人們往往想當然地認為非洲到處是戰亂和貧窮，但實際上，那里有非常多的創新，有很多令人振奮的故事，還有很多本土化的解決方案，這些完全可以推廣到全球。

韓樺：是的，聯合國確實發揮著非常重要的作用。根據AI的語言數據統計，目前全球大約85%的信息處理只覆蓋六種基本語言。而聯合國的工作顯然遠不止于此。

弗萊明：當然。我們一直在倡導人工智能的公平使用，這也是聯合國秘書長和整個聯合國極為關注的問題。去年9月，我們通過了《全球數字契約》（Global Digital Compact），其中提出建立類似“氣候變化政府間專門委員會（IPCC）”的機制。IPCC的作用是讓全球共享氣候變化方面的科研成果和解決方案。我們希望在人工智能領域也能實現類似的目標：讓每個國家都能平等地獲得人工智能所帶來的發展機遇，用它來解決問題，推動本國的發展。

這正是聯合國所扮演的一個重要角色：我們代表那些在技術與資源方面相對薄弱的國家，為他們爭取平等獲取先進科學技術的機會，因為這些技術同樣能夠極大地改善他們人民的生活。

韓樺：太好了，這正是讓所有參與者站在更公平舞臺上的一種努力。你剛才提到非洲的創新與發展，我非常認同，也想特別回應一下。最近，中國舉辦了與非洲國家的會議，共有53個非洲國家參與，并簽署了一項新的自由貿易協定，其中包括對非洲最不發達國家的產品實施免關稅進口。這非常有意義，它不僅體現了中國對非洲國家的開放與合作態度，也說明非洲確實有許多極具潛力和價值的產品——無論是工業制品，還是文化創意產品。中國民眾也越來越希望能夠與非洲的這些項目有更多直接的接觸與合作機會。

弗萊明：非洲有美味的咖啡。

韓樺：是的。

弗萊明：非洲不僅有美麗的花朵，更有許多創新。我記得之前在肯尼亞的時候，他們就已經有了M-Pesa（移動支付系統），那時候很多其他國家都還沒有類似的系統。人們可以通過它進行小額轉賬，支付小費、繳納稅款等，非常便捷。這種創新真的很了不起，他們的銀行也非常先進。

韓樺：他們的電子支付其實是非常發達的，對吧？

弗萊明：是的，而且走在全世界的前面。而且肯尼亞的能源大部分都來自可再生能源，但很多人并不知道這一點。其實，非洲許多國家找到的解決方案完全可以被轉化并適用于其他地區。

韓樺：是的，我有一個案例想跟你分享，也想聽聽你的看法。

我之前和一位非常有名的伊朗教授談到全球南方國家的發展以及其他相關議題時，他提到：“我了解到的中國的大部分信息，還是來自西方媒體。” 這說明，即便全球南方國家之間希望發展友好關系、加強交流合作，但他們獲取彼此信息的渠道，往往仍然是所謂的“西方媒體”。那么，面對這種現實，我們該如何應對？怎樣才能讓信息傳播的場域更加公平呢？

弗萊明：你提到的這一點很有意思。因為我去非洲出差的時候，發現那里的中國記者反而比西方記者還多。這是因為現在傳統的“外派記者制度”正在經歷一場危機——無論是我所在的國家，還是歐洲，都很難派出足夠多的駐外記者了。而我很驚訝地看到，尤其是中國的新聞機構，在非洲各地都有常駐記者，持續進行報道。

但在全球范圍內，我們正面臨“公共利益媒體”的危機。很多重要的故事根本沒有被講述出來。因為在社交媒體崛起之后，傳統獨立媒體賴以生存的商業模式幾乎崩塌了。

我不太了解中國的情況，但在許多其他國家，媒體大多依賴廣告收入來維持運營。隨著內容分發渠道逐漸轉向Facebook等社交平臺，媒體的收入開始大幅減少。因為這些平臺掌握了流量和廣告投放的主導權，而媒體自身卻難以從中獲得足夠的收益。這種變化給媒體的生存帶來了巨大挑戰。在這種情況下，最先被削減的往往是關于外國事務的深度報道。

2024年6月，聯合國秘書長古特雷斯在記者會上奉勸會員國不要宣傳虛假信息，多家媒體：是在不點名地“敲打”以色列 視頻截圖

同時，很多國家本身也缺乏能夠持續產生高質量新聞的土壤。因此，去年6月，聯合國發布了《全球信息完整性原則》（UN Global Principles on Information Integrity）。其中，我們提出了一系列建議，旨在幫助各國建立健康的信息生態系統。其中一個核心建議是：在每個國家都要加強對自由和獨立媒體的支持。同時，我們也針對科技平臺和廣告商提出了多項建議。因為我們堅信，一個真正健康的社會必須建立在“知情的公眾”之上——事實必須優先于謊言，而要做到這一點，就必須重建公眾對信息的信任。唯有如此，我們才能在推動全球和平、可持續發展、應對氣候變化等議題時凝聚共識，讓這個世界真正變得更美好。

韓樺：好的，最后一個問題：關于你提到的這個大膽的構想。如果要簡要總結一下，面對這個體系性問題，結構性變革應該從哪幾個核心方向入手？能否請你快速概括一下？

弗萊明：我們在《聯合國全球信息完整性原則》中提出了一系列建議，旨在構建一個健康的信息生態系統——讓人們能夠自由表達觀點，而不必擔心被攻擊或惡意中傷。但與此同時，必須對有害信息進行更有效的管理和調控，尤其是非法內容。此外，還有一些雖不違法但極具傷害性的內容，我們也認為需要加強適度監管。我們呼吁社交媒體平臺切實履行它們自己制定的服務條款。同時，我們也呼吁廣告商確保自己的廣告不會無意中助長虛假信息的傳播。當前的廣告環境非常復雜，很多廣告主甚至不知道自己的廣告最終會出現在什么樣的內容旁邊，結果可能反而助推了有害信息的擴散。如果我們能夠從這個環節切斷虛假信息的資金來源，這將是邁向健康信息生態非常關鍵的一步。

此外，我們希望獨立媒體能夠更具活力和可持續性。我們呼吁各國政府發揮自身作用，為本國社會營造一個健康的信息環境。最后，關于用戶，我們并不想把所有責任都推到他們身上，但用戶確實需要接受教育，學會在這個復雜的信息空間中辨別真假、理性判斷。媒體素養教育應該在學校中開展，幫助孩子們從小培養這方面的能力。同時，我們也不能忽視老年群體，他們中有許多人花大量時間在社交媒體上，卻不知道如何識別虛假信息，尤其是在人工智能時代，真假內容的界限越來越模糊。因此，我們需要加強對用戶的教育，幫助他們無論年齡大小，都能掌握基本的信息識別能力，從而在這個數字時代更安全、更理性地獲取和使用信息。

韓樺：否則，就會像你之前提到的那樣，出現“信息腐爛”（spring rot）的問題，對吧？所以我認為，這種教育應該是一種“終身學習”，而不僅僅是學校里的階段性課程。學校教育當然是一個很好的起點，就像你現在這樣經常跟學生和年輕人分享，是非常有意義的。但更重要的是，這種信息素養教育應該貫穿人的一生，不斷更新、不斷提升。在這一點上，我也特別鼓勵你多去不同的地方走一走。我相信你是喜歡旅行的人，對吧？

弗萊明：我真希望自己能一直專注于這件事，因為在北京的經歷實在太令人振奮了。我剛剛在北京八十中學和一群非常出色的學生交流，他們讓我印象深刻。還有北京書展，以及在Page One書店舉辦的世界難民日活動，那里的觀眾也讓我非常感動。他們充滿好奇心，愿意傾聽、思考，并且深刻理解書籍的價值。書籍是跨越時間的存在，它不僅承載著知識，更能拓展我們的想象力，豐富我們的情感和同理心。這次的北京之行，讓我更加堅信：人與人之間的理解和連接，真的可以從一本書、一次對話開始。

韓樺：我想再提一個角度，那就是你作為一名在聯合國工作的人士，同時也是一位作家的這種雙重身份。這種平衡的視角，再加上通過個人故事來講述宏大議題的方式，可能是一種非常有效的傳播手段。通過這種方式，你可以觸達你想影響的受眾，甚至擴大那些能夠通過這些個人故事產生共鳴的受眾群體。這或許可以成為媒體機構未來發展的一個亮點。

例如，當我們支持北京對話的專家們參加國際論壇，或者在主流媒體平臺上發表觀點時，我們總是鼓勵他們在這些關于大國博弈、國際議程的宏大討論中，融入一些個人經歷或故事。因為這些個人的經歷非常獨特，往往能打動人心，傳遞出更具溫度、更有說服力的信息。這正是敘事的力量，也是對話的希望所在。

弗萊明：這確實很明智，而且非常重要。公眾演講——你如何表達、如何呈現自己，以及你說了什么——這些能力在現實中常常被低估，也沒有足夠的重視和教學。許多對我們的世界和社會極為重要的人，比如外交官、官員、醫生，他們往往并沒有接受過真正有效的公眾表達訓練。

韓樺：我以為美國人會從小在學校里接受這方面的訓練。

弗萊明：我覺得現在確實比以前更加重視了，因為大家逐漸認識到，無論從事什么職業，溝通能力都是至關重要的。比如我曾經就讀的波士頓大學，當時我學的是新聞專業。現在，學校推出了一個跨學科項目，聯合了全球健康學院、工程學院和傳播學院。通過這種合作，學生們能夠真正理解當今這個信息主導的世界。比如，從事公共健康的人也需要學習如何有力地溝通，才能真正說服公眾、推動他們改變；工程專業的學生在研究數字技術的同時，也需要了解這些技術如何在傳播中發揮作用；而新聞與傳播學院則專注于思考：在這個時代，我們到底該如何有效觸達公眾。這是一種跨界協同的教育模式，其目的不僅是培養專業技能，更是培養“將專業語言轉化為人類語言”的能力。

這種變化很好，只是我覺得這種轉變的速度還是太慢了——數字時代發展得太快，而我們的教育和溝通方式卻沒有及時跟上。但現在人們又開始回歸到“傾聽”的價值上來。播客就是一個很好的例子，它非常受歡迎。過去有一種“傳統智慧”認為年輕人只愿意看30秒的視頻，其實不然。他們現在愿意聽一小時、甚至兩小時的播客。只要你是一個會講故事的人，或者像你一樣是一個優秀的對談者，你就能夠真正觸達人們的內心，建立深度連接。

韓樺：是的，正如你所說，我真心希望我們能舉辦一些教育型的研討會之類的活動，為我們的專家們提供更多的溝通技巧培訓。就像你提到的，無論一個人從事什么職業，溝通能力都極為重要，它可能是打動人心、實現目標或達成愿景的最關鍵因素。非常感謝你今天的分享！

弗萊明：這次交流真的非常有意思。

原文如下：

Han Hua: So let's start from your book first. In your book, you tell the story of Doaa Al Zamel. Why did you choose a personal narrative rather than some data or policies to portray the refugee crisis?

Melissa Fleming: When you talk about refugees, you're talking about millions of people. And those are numbers. Numbers don't move people, especially when they're big. In fact, according to behavioral science, big numbers can actually have the opposite effect. They can actually invoke fear. What we want is for refugees to be understood and welcomed， so the way to reach people's hearts is through individual stories. I've learned that through behavioral science and many studies. And realy I've proved it by telling the story of Doaa Al Zamel, which is actually a universal story. Every refugee could find themselves in this story.

Han Hua: Very good. But among the refugee stories, you must have encountered so many refugee personal stories. What moment gave you the strongest sense of humanities resilience?

Melissa Fleming: I think it is the story of Doaa. All refugees have to flee war. Some of them have incredible stories of survival, just getting out of their hometowns, fleeing their homes, and crossing dangerous borders. But Doaa's story is not only about witnessing the beginning of an awful war and having to flee it with her family, but also about taking another dangerous journey, which is something that many refugees do, a dangerous journey that thousands of refugees have already died in the Mediterranean Sea.

And yet, that drive to have something better, have something beyond just limbo and survival—to be able to pursue an education, to work and have a job—is so powerful that many refugees risk their lives on those journeys in the hope of reaching a better place.

That's what Doaa did. And unfortunately, it was a fateful journey. Out of 500 fellow passengers, including the love of her life, her fiancé, drowned. But the remarkable thing about her story is that she survived. Not only did she survive four days and four nights on the Mediterranean Sea, clinging to just a child's floating ring, but she also managed to save a baby girl.

Han Hua: Yeah, this is touching and she was lucky to survive.

Melissa Fleming: It was more than lucky. I think that's part of the story. It was a determination to save that life and it was faith. She's religious, so faith, but also really mostly, it wasn't even really to save herself. It was to save that little baby girl's life.

Han Hua: That's right. So compared to when the book was published back in 2017, what are the new developments in the global refugees’ situation like the impact of conflicts happening these days? The Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan, Iran?

Melissa Fleming: I wish I had good news to tell you, but unfortunately, things have just compounded and gotten worse. We have double the number of refugees today. People forced to flee UNHCR the UN Refugee Agency just announced this week that there are 122 million people who've been forced from their home. There is one silver lining there, one piece of good news and is that 2 million Syrian refugees returned home because of the change of government, because they felt finally, after 15 years, they felt safe to return.

So this is what we want for refugees. But the problem is the wars that push so many people out of their homes. The wars is not being resolved at year after year after year, every refugee, all they want is to be able to return home in safety and in dignity and to restart their lives. And unfortunately, this is just not possible because the wars rage on.

Han Hua: Thanks for sharing the silver lining of the refugee’s problem with Syria. You think the end of this refugee crisis would be to have the refugees going back to their hometown?

Melissa Fleming: It is. At UNHCR, we say that there are solutions that, of course, the best solution is that the refugees could return home if their home is safe. And if there are the conditions to return home. In Syria, it's still very difficult. There's so much destruction. And also, there is a lot of poverty, and there are very few services. So Syria needs a lot of help to rebuild, reconstruct, and to provide the conditions for the return of so many people. There are still millions and millions of Syrians outside of the country and also displaced within the country. So we need to invest in Syria. But there are other solutions too, including resettlement. This is a wonderful program where countries around the world agree to share the burden. Because most refugees are in neighboring countries and very often, those countries don't have very many means thinking about…

Kenya, for example, that has so many refugees from multiple different countries. The resettlement program would identify refugees who are particularly vulnerable children, young people who have traveled alone, who don't have any parents anymore, single headed families. These can be then vetted. Third countries will then resettle them. They'll board an airplane, they'll arrive in that country. There'll be a community that will welcome them and help them to restart their lives there.

The third solution is local integration. And if the country is able, they will allow some refugees. For example, Doaa and her family in Sweden. They're in Sweden now, and also the baby that she saved. They are now Swedish citizens. They are permitted to work, to go to school, and to restart their lives as swedes. So that's also a solution.

Han Hua: Yes. But how do you distinguish these different solutions for these refugees? How do you help them to figure out which is the best option for them?

Melissa Fleming: I think most of them would be happy for any of those options. The problem is that there are not enough spaces for resettlement. There are not enough countries who are willing to allow refugees to integrate locally. They may say, “Okay, you can be here, but temporarily until it's safe enough for you to return.” And they're usually in a refugee camp.

So one of the things that UNHCR is to advocate with the governments for these kinds of solutions. And at the United Nations, which I represent, we try to push for peace.

Han Hua: Of course, yes. You mentioned the key word, investment into people. Like whatever the solutions might be, investment into people directly is the key solution. After UNHCR, you move to be the under the secretary of UN in charge of taking care of the global communications. So, today's media world or the narrative world is rather fatigued or divided. So how can the public remain engaged with this refugee crisis first? And in your new role and capacity, how to promote today's information divides to bridge the gap?

Melissa Fleming: It's not easy because we are now in the digital age where there are all kinds of sources of information, as we know, online and where most people spend their time on social media.

And unfortunately, not all the information is good information on social media. You have a lot of false information, you have fake information, you have disinformation, you have hateful information. And the algorithms are trained to promote the content that creates and generates the most outrage. And at the UN, our content doesn't generate outrage because it's facts. It's what we try to do, though, is inspire. With our content, we inform, we try to move people to care, but also give them ways to get involved and to act. We do have over 70 million followers on our social media, just on the UN council, on the individual agencies have more. We do a lot of traditional media engagement as well. It's still very important. And we run our own platforms. We have UN news in multiple languages, so we tried. It's kind of like a battle of the information, a battlefield to be elevated and to get into people's feeds. We do everything that we can to try to reach people, and not just with statistics and numbers, but also with stories.

Han Hua: You are really good at that, telling especially the personal stories. You are right. Then many people, more people are getting the information, whatever it is from the social media. The statistics shows that for generation Z, 65% of the information they secured are from social media, TikTok, short views…

Do you have any targeted response plan towards this generation and the generation for the future beyond the social media? Because we have this all ai generated content, do you have any specific plan for the youths?

Melissa Fleming: One of the things that we do is that we make sure that we are on those platforms ourselves and we work with influencers. And they're not necessarily experts. Like, for example, we have an initiative called Verified where we work with influences around the world who want to work with us. And we provide them with information on climate change, mostly around transition to renewable energy, which is our big campaign push. And we give them the facts, and then we just say “go create. And you speak in your language, you use whatever style you have, and we'll just make sure you're accurate.” This is proven to be extremely effective. There's their trusted messengers in their communities. And that extends our reach.

Han Hua: You mean, you verify them first to just try to have these kinds of influencers? Like they work closely with you?

Melissa Fleming: Yes. And Tik Tok is a partner. And they help us to elevate those influencers’ accounts and their reach. So it's a great partnership and it's a very good method to reach out to communities that we would never reach as an institution sitting in New York.

Han Hua: Right. But how to drive them? How to motivate them?

Melissa Fleming: They're so motivated.

Han Hua: Why?

Melissa Fleming: We have so many people who want to work with the UN. That's the thing.

Han Hua: That’s the foundation.

Melissa Fleming: There are more people in this world who want peace, who want climate action, who want equality. They just don't know how to get involved. So our challenge is that we don't have the capacity to engage enough people who want to be engaged. But that is not a problem. There are so many good people in this world who are on the internet. And there are so many people who do want to be genuinely informed and inspired. It's just, unfortunately, sometimes the loudest and the most hateful voices prevail, and we can't let that happen.

Han Hua: Yeah, this might be some deep down in a human's basic instinct of this hate, to let the hateful messages prevail. So we need to do something to counter that. I like the initiative of involving and engaging of the influences.

At Beijing Club for International Dialogue, we actually are doing something similar to engage the Chinese influences as well as some world-famous influencers to let them know more about China and about China’s policies or opinions, even different opinions towards the foreign policies, for example. Very interesting and very effective in, just like you said, to engage people who want to be engaged. Because virtually everybody is on the internet nowadays, right?

Melissa Fleming: Traditionally the UN works with celebrities who are huge influencers. But we found that on some issues, yeah, they're not the trusted messengers that we need. That was particularly true during COVID-19. What ordinary people listen to were doctors and scientists who's spoken their language. So we worked also during COVID-19 with doctors in multiple countries. And we trained them on TikTok and other social media, and gave them also the facts from WHO. And they spoke to their communities and got huge followings and then were asked to be interviewed on the national television. So it is really important to look at what you are trying to change in the world, and then who influences those people. And that's going to be your influential communications arm into those members of the public.

Han Hua: I think this is more than a silver lining. This is really promising. So do you have any priorities of this engage into influences? You mentioned the climate change, you mentioned the health care, which are really in the universal issues. But how about the geopolitical tensions, major power competitions?

Melissa Fleming: We obviously are consumed by the crises in our world, the wars that are causing so much human suffering, but also so much tension. And I’m based in New York, so I’ve seen this in the theater of the security council in the general assembly. My team is responsible for covering all of those debates. So people can and—in a way, just a very straightforward news oriented way, we also provide the live broadcast feed of all of these deliberations so that people can enter into the UN theater and see for themselves. So we provide transparency. We provide information about what is happening. Obviously, the speeches of the Secretary General are extremely important for us to convey. He's delivering them there, but we also make sure that they reach people around the world in multiple languages. And they're often calling for cease fires or peace or talks or political solutions rather than solutions on the battlefield.

Han Hua: So basically, you're providing a platform where different voices can have the opportunity to speak out, right? To speak out the facts, I think.

Melissa Fleming: In the UN, we work on three pillars: peace and security, humanitarian and development, and the peace and security. A lot of those debates are happening in New York, and that's where the member states are the main actors. And they're delivering their positions. But I think what people can see by showing what is happening to the world, letting people inside through video coverage and live streaming, is that they can see the different positions of the different actors. And see also, though that the United Nations is there, because what we need global cooperation and multilateral solutions for our world's problems. It's very difficult to solve them bilaterally for all issues, wars, pandemic, climate, change. They affect everyone, so they need a global solution, and that's what's happening inside the UN.

Han Hua: Yes. The UN remains still as very important world stage for these actors, you mentioned. But some actors bring to the stage the facts, and some are bringing to the stage only they are acting, the facts in their perception. Do you have any mechanism to distinguish them or you just provide?

Melissa Fleming: No, when it's a member state speaking, we just let people judge themselves and we report what is being said in a very impartial manner.

Now, when the Secretary General gives his speech, he often makes judgments or issues opinions, and that's what guides us. But I think it is the stage where member states have the opportunity to speak. And in the general assembly, no matter how big you are, no matter how small you are, you have a voice, and you have one vote, only one vote.

Han Hua: That's very important. From the very beginning of the crisis between Israel and Iran, I noticed that when I wanted to look for some real news or facts, I turned to your website, I found that both representative from both countries had the opportunity to speak out, to host the press conference to the media, to the audience they want to reach. So this is very important for the un to continue this balanced role.

But down the road, the narratives in the past decades or almost since the establishment of Yuan for 80 years is that we have to confess that is mostly controlled by the western media, all by the western capabilities to shape the narrative. There is the surge of Global South and the multipolar world is taking shape. So how the Global South countries reach the larger audience through a more evolving or more sophisticated narrative capabilities from your expertise?

Melissa Fleming: I think there are a lot of possibilities now. This is the good side of digital media and social media. I think there are many more voices who can be heard, whether it's countries that have never had that chance, or it's also individuals who have been marginalized. They can now find a voice. Now, it's difficult to compete. But there are, I think, now many channels. Our goal at the UN in our Communications Department, because we believe in the value, as we say, of multilingualism, that we not only report in the six official languages, one of which is Chinese of the UN, but we have 59 information centers around the world, where we can also extend what's happening at the UN to these populations. But conversely, we can report about what is happening in these countries to a global platform. It's very often, especially in Africa, there are very many stereotypes. People just assume Africa is all war torn and poor. There is so much innovation. There's so much to be inspired by. And there are so many solutions that are being found locally to problems that could be transferred globally. And we try to bring these examples out into the world.

Han Hua: Yeah. So the UN is playing definitely a very important role. Because from the AI calculation states that only 85 % of the information, they only work on six basic languages. And you are doing more than that.

Melissa Fleming: Certainly. We are advocating for AI actors. This is a huge concern of the Secretary General and the UN. And we just adopted last September a global digital compact. And it calls for the creation of something like the IPCC that is for climate change. That equalizes the research around climate change and climate solutions to the world. And this is what we endeavor. Every country should be able to access the AI possibilities for solutions and for expanding development in their countries.

So this is one of the roles that the UN plays. We advocate on behalf of the countries that don't have as much power to be able to access the same kind of technologies and science that can lift their people as well.

Han Hua: Great. Try to make the playground more even for all the actors. I just want to resonate when you mention about the Africa’s innovation and development. Most recently, China held this conference for African countries, 53, all of them, and signed this new agreement of the free trade with even the least developed countries in Africa, meaning that the African products can be imported into China tax free. So it means that Africa do have some very interesting, productive products, be it like the industrial products or some cultural products. Chinese people want to have more direct engagement with these projects.

Melissa Fleming: Delicious coffee.

Han Hua: Exactly.

Melissa Fleming: Beautiful flowers. But also many innovations. I remember being in Kenya and way before anyone was doing this, they have this in M-Pesa where you can transfer small amounts of money to each other, people paying the tips, the taxes. It was so innovative, their banking system.

Han Hua: Their E-payment is actually very developed, right?

Melissa Fleming: Yes. It was first, before everybody. And Kenya is also mostly powered by renewable energy. And people don't know that. There are many, I think, solutions that many African countries have found that can be also transferred and adapted to other places of the world.

Han Hua: Yeah. I have a case to share with you and want to seek your idea.

When I talk to a very famous Iranian professor about the Global South development and other issues, he said that, “The most information I got regard China are from the western media.” It's like even Global South countries want to develop the friendship and ask other relationship, enhance the relationship. But we have to get information from the so-called western media. So how should we tackle this kind of issues to have the information playground more even?

Melissa Fleming: That's interesting that you say that because when I travel to Africa, I see more Chinese journalists than Western journalists, because there is a crisis of foreign correspondence. There are really not enough foreign correspondents from my country or from Europe. And I’ve been impressed to see how many from especially your news agencies that are reporting from across Africa.

But we have a crisis of media, public interest media globally. I don't think enough stories are getting out. Because with the rise of social media, we saw a complete crash of the financial model for independent media around the world.

I don't know about here in China, but because they're often in advertising model and the distribution had to move to Facebook and other. They soon started losing the revenue. They needed to survive. So it's been a real struggle. And often what was cut first from it is reporting on foreign countries.

But also in those countries themselves, there's very little news being generated. So we issued last June UN Global Principles on Information Integrity. And there we advise on how to create a healthy information ecosystem everywhere. And one of the recommendations is to bolster free and independent media in every country. But also there are many recommendations for the platforms and for advertisers. Because we believe we need a public that is informed. We need facts to be prioritized over lies. And we need trust, we need public trust in order to advance in the areas that we are working on to make the world a better place.

Han Hua: Of course. Very interesting. And the last but not least question is about this, your bold idea. Very quick response. When structure change to rebuild this information ecosystem, you mentioned a lot, but to summarize it a little bit.

Melissa Fleming: We have a set of recommendations in the UN Global Principles for Information Integrity. To create an information ecosystem in which people are free to express themselves without fear of being attacked or undermined. But at the same time, where harmful information, especially if it's illegal, but there are other forms of very hurtful information that there needs to be more moderation of this. And we call on the social media platforms. It just to live up to their own terms of service. We also call on advertisers to make sure that their ads are not funding disinformation. It's a very difficult, advertising environment where they often don't even know where their ads get placed. And they inadvertently get placed against harmful content. If we could stop that, we would go a long way.

Again, we want independent media to have more viability. We call on governments also to play their role in making the information space healthy for their societies. And then finally, users. We don't want to put all the responsibility on users, but we need users to be educated, to understand how to navigate this very difficult information space. It should be taught in schools, media, literacy. But also for our older people who spent a lot of time on social media and don't know how to navigate, especially in AI age where people can't distinguish between what is real and what isn't. We need more education for users.

Han Hua: Otherwise spring rot, as you mentioned before, right? So I think it should be a lifelong continuous education, not only from school. From school is a really good start, just like you are sharing with a lot of school students, young people. But it should be a continuous education. On this, I really encourage you to travel more. I think you like travel, right?

Melissa Fleming: I wish I could do only this because I was so inspired being here in Beijing. I just spoke to an amazing group of students at the school 80. And I was so impressed with them, but also the Beijing Book Fair, World Refugee Day in the Page One Bookstore. And just such an incredible interested audience and people who understand that books are timeless and yet so important for our knowledge, for expanding our imaginations and expanding our hearts.

Han Hua: I think one more approach I want to mention is that your experience being a UN professional as well as a writer. So this kind of balance and through the length of personal story could be a very useful approach to reach the audience that you want to reach or enlarge the audience that can be resonated through this kind of personal stories. So that may be a silver lining for the media outlet to develop.

For example, when we support our Beijing Club Experts to go to the international forums or to publish in the mainstream media platforms, we always want to encourage them to share some personal stories in this global power play, competition, discussion or opinions because it’s very unique.

Melissa Fleming: That's very smart. It is so important. Public speaking how you deliver and come across and what you say is so underrated. It's not taught enough. So diplomats or officials, doctors, people who are so important for our world in our society, they're not trained in effective public speaking.

Han Hua: I thought Americans are trained from their childhood in schools.

Melissa Fleming: I think there's more now definitely because I think it's recognized no matter what career. For example, I went to Boston University where I studied journalism, they now have a program together with the department of Global Health and the department of Engineering to work together so that their students understand this modern information world, that the people who are working in public health can also learn strong communication skills to convey. Because they need to persuade the public. The engineers are looking at the digital technology, and of course the college of communication. And the School of Journalism are looking at how do you reach people in this day and age.

So it's interesting to see the evolution. I think it's been too slow. The digital age has gone too fast. But there is a return to listening to people. Pod casts are incredibly popular. There was this conventional wisdom that young people only need 30-second videos. No. They listen to 1 hour, 2 hour pod cast. So if you are a good storyteller, if you're a good interviewer like you, then you can really reach a lot of people and get into their hearts.

Han Hua: Yes. As you mentioned. So on this note, I really hope that we can establish some educational seminar or whatever to equipped my experts with more communication skills. Like you said, whatever the career the people is undergoing, communication is so important, maybe the most crucial parts of the success to reach people's hearts and to achieve the results or the aim. Thank you so much.

Melissa Fleming: It was really interesting.

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