龔鵬程對話海外學者第八十七期：在后現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

瑞秋·散澤-芮薇拉（Rachell Sánchez-Rivera）

波多黎各學者，曾獲得美國哥倫比亞大學拉丁美洲和加勒比地區研究碩士，劍橋大學皇后學院拉丁美洲研究中心博士，劍橋大學社會學系博士后。

現任劍橋大學（University of Cambridge）岡維爾和凱斯學院（Gonville & Caius College）種族和反種族主義研究中心研究員，劍橋大學社會學系生殖社會學研究小組 、經濟和社會研究理事會理事。

劍橋大學社會學系教學獎、導師獎獲得者。

龔鵬程：您好。您的經歷，幾乎可算是個旅行家，游走于拉丁美洲、美洲、歐洲之間。除了知識追求、課業學習之外，我覺得您還善用了兩個網絡，一是社會上的旅行補助制度，二是世界性的學術網絡。

例如您曾獲得的健康與疾病社會學基金會之會議旅行補助金、劍橋大學皇后學院旅行補助金、哥倫比亞大學的論文實地考察波多黎各之旅行補助金等，屬于第一類。

第二類其實是學術社群這種“非國家行動者”本身的動能，例如，您經常參加的學校跨國合作項目獲國際研討會。

請介紹一下在這兩個網絡的共同作用下，您是如何逐漸形成了你的研究興趣？另外，您認為在您的研究領域中有什么令人興奮的最新發展?

散澤-芮薇拉：龔教授，您好，非常感謝您邀請我參加這個對話項目。我的學術興趣主要集中在科學社會學、社會不平等、性別和生育這幾個范疇。

在我的書稿——《墨西哥優生學經歷了些什么?：種族主義和民族的繁衍》中，我探討了20世紀初墨西哥優生學的起源，并追溯了其至今的延續和演變。根據采用的檔案材料和當代積極分子的報告，我的研究揭示了優生學家在墨西哥民族國家的建立中扮演了重要的角色。這將是第一本以英文書寫的墨西哥優生學著作，這幫助我們拓寬了對優生學的跨國關系及其當代遺留問題的理解。

在這份書稿中，我運用長時段（longue durée）歷史和社會學分析去了解優生學在墨西哥是怎么產生的（墨西哥革命后1910 – 1920期間），并解答了關于在1950年代中期，墨西哥優生學會解散后，在優生思想和實踐上的發展。通過探討這個問題，呈現出優生觀念的全球互聯性，并介紹了在特定環境下知識如何產生，以及這些觀念如何影響個人的日常生活。我認為在墨西哥的優生思想的影響下，國家機構的建立，反而助長了將優生學家眼中不利于改善國家發展的群體‘病態化’；而在這種隱晦的表達方式下，這些缺乏明顯種族主義色彩的觀點正正導致了優生思想依然存世至今。因此，即使在優生學的措辭已不再被接受的情況下，我也提供了一些方法以便識別現今優生思想和實踐的延續。

我相信在我的研究領域中，最令人興奮的發展之一，是對優生學遺留問題的探討，許多人似乎將優生學視為偽科學，認為其不再與當代對社會或文化的理解有關；然而，優生學思想的影響其實仍然持續著。

Hello, Professor Gong. Thank you so much for your invitation for this programme. My primary academic interests are the sociology of science, social inequalities, gender, and reproduction. My book manuscript, entitled What Happened to Mexican Eugenics?: Racism and the Reproduction of the Nation explores the origins of eugenics in Mexico at the beginning of the twentieth century and traces its continuity and evolution into the present day. Using a mixture of archival materials and contemporary activists reports, my research shows how central the role of eugenicists was to the creation of the Mexican nation-state. This project will be the first book dedicated to Mexican eugenics that is written in English, broadening our understanding of transnational connections of eugenics and its contemporary legacies.

This book manuscript uses a longue durée historical and sociological analysis in order tounderstand how eugenics came about in Mexico (after the Mexican Revolution 1910-1920) and to answer the question of what happened to eugenic ideas and practices after the dissolution of the Mexican Society of Eugenics (SME) in the mid-1950s. The answer to this question demonstrates the global interconnectedness of eugenic ideas, the production of context-specific knowledge and how these notions have an impact on the every-day life of individuals. I argue that eugenic ideas in Mexico allowed the creation of a national body that, in turn, helped to pathologize groups that, in the eugenicists’ view, were detrimental to the improvement of the national stock—ideas that continue to exist today through the usage of veiled and coded language that lack overtly racist overtones. Thus, I provide the tools to recognize the continuation of eugenic practices and ideas even after the language of eugenics falls from acceptability.

I believe that one of the most exciting developments in my research area are the legacies of eugenics. A lot of people seem to cast eugenics as a pseudoscience that no longer has relevance in contemporary understandings of society or culture, nonetheless, the impacts of eugenic ideas still persist.

龔鵬程：您的研究興趣廣泛，從健康與疾病社會學、酷兒理論、生殖社會學，到殘疾研究，很想聽聽您對優生學的研究和敘述。

散澤-芮薇拉：我在紐約市哥倫比亞大學的碩士論文中，研究了在美國殖民地波多黎各用避孕藥進行優生實驗的媒介表現。這使我發現了在美洲和歐洲不同的優生學協會有著非常廣泛的跨國關系。也使我在Alexandra Stern和Nancy Stepan的著作中，了解到優生學在美洲有著各式各樣的實施方式，而且他們經常創造自己的科學語言和術語。

這種方法使我能夠從不同的角度探索墨西哥優生學的發展，包括墨西哥優生學協會的成員在個人和國家層面上對家庭的形成所產生的影響，以及誰屬于和不屬于墨西哥民族的定義。這本書稿的主要論點是，優生學并不是簡單地消失，而是繼續在個人管理自己身體的過程中，國家有關公共衛生危機的措施，如艾滋病毒流行、殘疾和人口控制問題中繼續存在著。

總的來說，這個著作引入了“狡猾的優生學”這個概念，以解釋墨西哥優生學思想的持續發展和影響，我認為，這些思想至今繼續塑造著民族的繁衍。

My MA thesis at Columbia University in the City of New York focused on the mediatic representations of the eugenic experimentations with the contraceptive pill in Puerto Rico, which is a colony of the United States of America. This led me to find broader transnational connections with the different societies of eugenics all throughout the Americas and Europe. This led me to find the works of Alexandra Stern and Nancy Stepan who argue that the ways in which eugenics was carried out in the Americas was multifarious and they often created their own scientific language and terminology. This approach enabled me to explore the development of eugenics in Mexico from different angles, including the impact members of the Mexican Society of Eugenics had on the making of the family at an individual and national level, and the definition of who does—and does not—belong to the Mexican nation. The main argument of this book manuscript is that eugenics did not simply disappear but continues to be seen in the processes through which individuals manage their own bodies, as well as in state measures concerning public health crises such as the HIV epidemic, disability, and issues of population control. Overall, this work introduces the concept of slippery eugenics to account for the ongoing development and impact of eugenic ideas in Mexico, which, I argue, continue to shape the reproduction of the nation into the present.

龔鵬程：您雖年輕，但在拉丁美洲研究這個領域已經很具有發言權。您做過一系列的特約講座，如 “在色盲世界中表現黑人激進主義”， “拉丁美洲的性別暴力”， “格雷羅的土著人、種族主義和絕育”等。您剛才還還提出了 “狡猾的優生學”的概念，以及它在現實社會上的存在狀況。請您再接著談一談“狡猾的優生學”與當下種族和種族主義研究的相關性。

散澤-芮薇拉：迄今為止，我的主要貢獻是結論性地證明了優生學并不是簡單地消失，而是繼續在個人管理自己身體的過程中，國家有關公共衛生危機的措施，如艾滋病毒流行、殘疾和人口控制問題中繼續存在著。總的來說，我的作品引入了狡猾的優生學的創新概念，以解釋墨西哥優生學思想的持續發展和影響，我認為，這些思想至今繼續塑造著這個國家的再生產。

例如，在目前的學術研究中，我們已經看到了人們是如何倡導回歸優生理念的，Jorge Linares Santiago (他在墨西哥，是墨西哥國立大學社會科學和人文學系的系主任)，Stephen Hsu (美國物理學家，密歇根州立大學助理教授），他的哈佛博士學位包含了提倡優生的主張，以及每年一次的倫敦大學學院優生思想會議。

這些都證明了“狡猾的優生學”與今天的種族和種族主義研究的相關性?？偟膩碚f，狡猾的優生學動搖了優生學的分期，以此來指出“種族主義的表現已經滲透到社會生活，并改變了他們的呈現方式”。

我認為，狡猾的優生學能幫助我們了解 “種族”科學的遺留問題是如何滲透進墨西哥民族主義——一個“混血國家在社會、科學、醫學和文化上的理解。我未來的研究項目將擴展至與種族主義和殘疾主義優生實踐（特別關注）有關的狡猾優生學，即墨西哥的殘疾人和土著人的系統性絕育。

The main contribution of my research thus far has been, to demonstrate quite conclusively that eugenics did not simply disappear but continues to be seen in the processes through which individuals manage their own bodies, as well as in state measures concerning public health crises such as the HIV epidemic, disability, and issues of population control. Overall, my work introduces the innovative concept of slippery eugenics to account for the ongoing development and impact of eugenic ideas in Mexico, which, I argue, continue to shape the reproduction of the nation into the present. For instance in current scholarship, we have seen how people are now advocating for a return to eugenic ideas like Jorge Linares Santiago (who is in Mexico and is the head of the social sciences and humanities department in the UNAM), Stephen Hsu (an American physicist and Assistant Professor at Michigan State University whose Harvard PhD contained claims advocating for eugenic, and the yearly UCL conference on eugenic ideas. These all demonstrate the relevance of ‘slippery eugenics’ to studies of race and racism today. Overall, Slippery eugenics shakes the periodization of eugenics as a way of showing how ‘expressions of racism have infiltrated social life and transformed their modes of presentation’ (Moreno Figueroa 2006: 17). I argue that slippery eugenics provides the tools to understand how the legacies of ‘race’ science have penetrated social, scientific, medical, and cultural understandings of Mexican nationalism as a ‘mestizo (mixedraced) nation’. My future research project will expand on slippery eugenics in relation to racist and ableist eugenic practices (with a special focus) on the systemic sterilization of people constructed as disabled and indigenous peoples in Mexico.

龔鵬程：研究種族主義的多年，您認為大學在種族主義中扮演了什么角色? 學術界能做些什么來對抗種族主義?

散澤-芮薇拉：我相信大學在反對種族主義方面發揮著重要作用。作為學者，我們的工作是以一種交叉的方式與社會不平等作斗爭。

此外，大學需要努力實現包容性、多樣性，更重要的是，積極打擊種族主義。

在我任教的社會學系，我們有一個去殖民化社會學工作組，這個組正式成立于2017年10月，它的主要目標是實現上述部門的去殖民化。為了實現這一點，工作小組“收集有關部門去殖民化的實際措施上的建議”，“實施切實可行的措施，使部門生活的各個方面去殖民化”，評估、代表，并與劍橋校內外其他去殖民化倡議合作。

此外，在劍橋大學，我們還有“終結日常種族主義”倡議，這是一個由社會學系的Ella McPherson博士和Monica Moreno Figueroa博士獨立開發的研究項目。在他們的官方網站上，表示:“該項目旨在通過數字、描述性和地理證據來發展我們對日常種族主義的理解，以建立一個集體案例，支持大學和更多地方的反種族主義宣傳和社會正義行動主義?！?/p>

此外，我認為傾聽學生們的擔憂是非常重要的，尤其是在學校里討論和對抗反黑人身份的時候。這就是為什么劍橋大學和學院成立了不同的工作小組，致力于發現這些機構中的奴隸制遺留問題。

I believe universities play a big role in fighting racism. It is our job as academics to combat social inequalities in an intersectional manner. Additionally, universities need to work towards inclusivity, diversity, and, more importantly, fighting actively against racism. In the department of sociology where I am an Affiliate Lecturer, we have the Decolonize Sociology working group. This group was officially founded in October 2017. Its main goal is the decolonisation of the abovementioned department. In order todo this, the working group ‘collects suggestions and input about practical measures to decolonise the department’, ‘implement practical measures to decolonise all aspects of departmental life’, and assess, represent and collaborate with other decolonisation initiatives in and outside of Cambridge. Additionally, at the University of Cambridge we also have the End Everyday Racism initiative which is an independent research project developed by Dr Ella McPherson and Dr Monica Moreno Figueroa who are based at the department of Sociology. On their official website it is stated that this ‘project aims to develop our understanding of everyday racism with numeric, descriptive and geographic evidence, in order to build a collective case to support antiracism advocacy and social justice activism at the University and further afield’. Additionally, I think it is very important to hear the concerns of our students especially when discussing and fighting anti-Blackness in institutions. This is why the university and colleges at Cambridge are founding the different working groups that work towards uncovering the legacies of slavery in these institutions.

龔鵬程：您的研究涉及許多社會問題，尤其是種族主義。您認為學術研究可以如何影響政策制定者?其主要的挑戰是什么?

散澤-芮薇拉：我認為，我們面臨的最大挑戰，是在種族主義中體制結構上的權利格局被禁錮。當一個機構的體制建立在繼續排斥和歧視黑人和有色人種的種族主義的（做法和政策）基礎上時，就很難打擊種族主義。

作為學者，我們需要參與到積極分子、實踐者、決策者和公眾成員關于社會問題的持續對話中，比如種族主義的結構性動態，以及它們如何與其他核心壓迫手段一起運作，比如性別歧視、性別暴力、殘疾歧視、階級歧視等等。

我認為，我們的工作應超越研究和教學，并應在政策和實踐的影響下，積極幫助緩解緊張局勢和打破世界上的不平等。

例如，我通過公費獎學金與許多學術界以外的人合作，在與肯特大學的Rebecca Ogden博士的合作下，我們決定制作Cuerpa Politica播客，這個播客討論的是拉丁美洲對生育正義的追求，該地區的生育政策是世界上最具爭議的政策之一。在這里，我們與學者、積極分子、從業者和實踐者談論他們在尋求生育自由方面的經驗。

同樣，我和劍橋大學的一群學者成立了生育正義研究網絡，這是一系列的研討會(對公眾開放)，通過交叉視角來尋求生育正義，這使我們能夠利用我們的平臺向人們宣傳社會不平等、生育不公正、環境種族主義、跨性別問題、性別暴力等問題。

I think our biggest challenge is the structural dynamics of power that are cemented in racism. It is very hard to combat racism when the structure of an institution is based on racist practices and policies that continue to marginalise and discriminate against Black people and people of colour. We, as academics, need to be involved in the constant conversations that activists, practitioners, policymakers, and members of the public have regarding social issues like the structural dynamics of racism and how they operate in conjunction with other axes of oppression like sexism, gender violence, ableism, classism, among others. I believe that our work should go beyond research and teaching, and should involve an active participation in the influence of policies and practices that help ease tensions as well as breaking the structural dynamics of inequalities in the world. For instance, I have collaborated-through public scholarship-with many people outside of academia. In collaboration with Dr Rebecca Ogden from the University of Kent, we decided to do the Cuerpa Politica podcast. This podcast deals with the quest for reproductive justice in Latin America which has one of the most contentious reproductive policies in the world. Here, we talk to academics, activists, practitioners and activists about their experiences in the quest for reproductive freedom. Similarly, a group of scholars from the University of Cambridge and I have founded the Reproductive Justice Research Network which is a series of seminars (which are open to the general public) about the quest for reproductive justice through intersectional lenses. This has allowed us to use our platform to inform people about issues around social inequalities, reproductive in-justices, environmental racism, trans issues, gender violence, among many others.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規劃城市建設、主題園區等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。