龔鵬程對話海外學者第一百期：在后現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

德懷特·珀金斯教授（Professor Dwight H. Perkins）

哈佛大學政治經濟學教授。

龔鵬程教授：您好。對于東亞和東南亞國家的經濟歷史和發展，歷來有兩種觀點，一派認為東亞受儒家、佛教、道教、印度教之影響，不能發展出資本主義現代經濟。傳統與現代是斷裂的、阻隔的。一派認為不然，傳統儒佛道仍可以發展出資本主義。中國受韋伯(Max Weber)影響，主要采取前一種態度。美國則在二十世紀初即有中國人陳煥章留學哥倫比亞，寫《孔門理財學》，溝通儒學與自由經濟。后來賴世和、費正清也比較注意日本經濟的發展，所以在傳統與現代之間會有較寬容的想法。您對這類思想上的分歧或爭議，有何看法？

德懷特·珀金斯教授：龔教授，您好。在東亞的歷史傳統中，有一些對后來的現代經濟發展有利的因素，也有一些不利的因素。 在不利的一面，儒家希望向后看一些早期的理想狀態，這導致了保守的觀點，使中國和其他國家無法做出經濟發展所需的改變。 另一方面，儒家強調教育的重要性，為中國提供了良好的人力資本基礎；一旦其他變革得以實現，經濟增長和發展就成為可能。 這種人力資本的積累，也可以看作的資本主義發展的基礎。

當然，歷史上的儒家學者并不一定是因此目的而提倡教育的。因此，儒家在歷史某些特定時期可能使得中國發展顯示出了滯后性，但在另一時期，儒家也促進了中國的發展。而佛教道教亦然。

總體而言，我認為佛教和道教對東亞的現代經濟發展沒有什么有利或不利的影響。佛教在進入中國以后被本土化了，與道教一起經常成為君王維護統治的工具。雖然它們在思想上對中國人形成了一定程度的禁錮，但是即使是在寺院中，各種各樣的經濟形式也是普遍存在的。

There were elements in East Asia’s historical traditions that were favorable to later modern economic development and other elements that were not favorable. On the unfavorable side, the Confucian desire to look backward toward some early ideal state led to conservative views that held China and others back from making changes required for economic development. On the other hand, Confucian emphasis on the importance of education provided a good human capital foundation for China once other changes were made that made economic growth and development possible. This accumulation of human capital can also be seen as a quasi-capitalist development. But, of course, Confucian scholars throughout history did not necessarily advocate education for this purpose. Thus, Confucianism may have caused China's development to lag at specific periods in history, but at other times it has also contributed to China's development. The same can be said of Buddhism and Taoism. Overall I would say Buddhism and Daoism had little influence favorable or unfavorable on East Asia’s modern economic development. Buddhism was localised after it entered China and, along with Taoism, was often used as a tool by sovereigns to maintain their regime. Although they formed a degree of intellectual confinement for the Chinese, various forms of the economy were prevalent even in the temples.

龔鵬程教授：您如何評價中國大陸這些年從中央計劃到市場的過渡？

德懷特·珀金斯教授：總的來說，中國從中央計劃的指令性經濟向主要由市場力量支配的經濟迅速、相對平穩和有效地過渡。轉型過程中的一個不完整因素，是國有企業繼續發揮著核心作用。 這些企業獲得了私營企業所沒有的優勢，盡管私營企業的投資回報率高得多。

這種過渡是成功的，因為它使得中國的經濟實力、文化實力等國家實力都得到增強。雖然其中國有企業的核心作用巨大，但是私營企業是不可或缺的一股力量，如果沒有它們，中國不可能有現在突飛猛進的發展。

Overall China had a rapid and relatively smooth and effective transition from a centrally planned command economy to an economy governed mainly by market forces. The one incomplete component of the transition was the continued central role played by state owned enterprises. These enterprises received advantages not available to the private enterprises despite the fact that the private enterprises experienced much higher rates of return to investment. The transition has been successful as it has led to an increase in China's economic strength, cultural strength and other national strengths. While the central role of state owned enterprises in this has been enormous, the private enterprises have been an indispensable force without which China could not have developed as rapidly as it has.

龔鵬程教授：您現在看，東亞增長的基本來源有什么變化嗎？法律機構在東亞經濟增長中的作用又如何？

德懷特·珀金斯教授：東亞大部分地區的法律機構普遍薄弱和不發達，這是阻礙該地區充分發揮其潛力的一個障礙。 新加坡和香港是個例外，至少在商業領域，法律制度是相當強大的。 在越南，黨可以推翻正式的法律制度，這是一個嚴重的弱點。 印度尼西亞和柬埔寨的法律體系因其他原因而薄弱，這導致了大量腐敗和其他問題

Legal institutions in much of East Asia are generally weak and underdeveloped and this is a barrier to the region reaching its full potential. The exceptions are Singapore and Hong Kong where at least in the commercial sphere the legal systems are quite strong. The fact that the Party can overrule the formal legal system in Vietnam is a serious weakness. The legal systems in Indonesia and Cambodia are weak for other reasons and this leads to much corruption among other problems.

龔鵬程教授：您怎么看印度尼西亞？

德懷特·珀金斯教授：從20世紀70年代末到90年代初，印度尼西亞有一個有效的發展戰略，導致了不依賴自然資源出口和高自然資源價格的穩定增長。經濟領導層保持匯率不被高估，并取消了對工業的過度進口替代法規，使工業部門有可能快速增長。然而，在20世紀90年代末，腐敗變得猖獗，導致印度尼西亞在1997-1998年的金融危機中遭受損失。隨后的政府又回到了對自然資源出口的依賴，工業發展和工業出口受到影響。然而，在最近幾年，政府作出了重大努力，來增強經濟中嚴重欠發達的基礎設施。

Indonesia from the late 1970s through to the early 1990s had an effective development strategy that led to steady growth that was not dependent on natural resource exports and high natural resource prices. The economic leadership kept the exchange rate from becoming overvalued and deregulated excessive import substituting regulations on industry that made it possible for the industrial sector to grow rapid. In the late 1990s, however, corruption become rampant contributing to Indonesia’s suffering from the financial crisis on 1997-1998. Subsequent governments went back to relying more on natural resource exports and industrial development and industrial exports suffered. In the most recent years, however, the government has made major efforts to strengthen the seriously underdeveloped infrastructure of the economy.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規劃城市建設、主題園區等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、臺灣國立東華大學終身榮譽教授、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。